Emacspeak discussion list

[Robert Melton <lists AT robertmelton.com>]

Thanks for all the feedback.  I am going to do a few things. 

1. Reduce the install to instructions in the README.md that say "make a 
symlink" and move on. 
2. Recommend people use the git version of emacspeak instead of my repo 
unless doing dev on swiftmac. 
3. Will finally read TAOUP.

Need to stay focused, when MacOS 15 comes out both the present version of 
swiftmac and the mac server will stop working due to depreciation of 
libraries. So eye on the ball for the v2 with new TTS libs.

> On Jan 9, 2024, at 17:56, Victor Tsaran (via emacspeak Mailing List) 
> <emacspeak AT emacspeak.net> wrote:
> 
> Lovely discussion!
> :)
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 2:04 PM "T.V Raman" <emacspeak AT emacspeak.net> wrote:
> Correct. But he doesn't need that variable because mac-swiftmac is
> already under the emacspeak/servers directory;-)
> 
> Also lessons learnt in the school of hard knocks: (see list archive
> for examples)
> 
> The more "helpful" you make a system, the less people will read what
> you write, and worse, they'll pay you back by using (abusing?) the
> time you saved them by bad-mouthing your work on random chat rooms and
> mailing lists about how difficult your software was to use :-)
> 
> Here is an example from swiftmac waiting to bite:
> 
> 1. The readme.md helpfully shows you how to set it up.
> 2. The swiftmac server helps the user tune things to  their taste with
>    a bunch of env vars.
> 3. The readme shows how to set these from inside Emacs with a few lisp forms
> 4. Clueless Luser: Will go complain in a few months about how they had to
>    "write lisp code" to set this up.
> 
> "Tim Cross" (via emacspeak Mailing List) writes:
>  > 
>  > Raman, you just beat me to it! I agree 100%
>  > 
>  > I was reading the thread where John and Robert were trying to get John's
>  > version of the swift server working and the main thing which jumped out
>  > at me was the core issue seemed to be Robert's attempt to be overly
>  > helpful and as a consequence has got into a situation where installation
>  > has become too complicated and error prone.
>  > 
>  > Robert, I highly recommend that instead of trying to automate and
>  > simplify the installation of the switftmac server, just write up some
>  > very simple installation instructions. If you really want to automate
>  > part of the process, your instructions could just stipulate that the
>  > user should define the environment variable EMACSPEAK_DIR which points
>  > to the root of the emacspeak installation and then have your scripts use
>  > that variable to determine what to do or where to place stuff. Your
>  > script could even exit with an error message if the environment variable
>  > does not exist.
>  > 
>  > Tim
>  > 
>  > 
>  > 
>  > 
>  > "\"T.V Raman\"" (via emacspeak Mailing List) <emacspeak AT emacspeak.net> 
> writes:
>  > 
>  > > I recommend you do nothing -- focus on getting the swiftmac server  to
>  > > be really high-quality.
>  > >
>  > > 1. Right now it's in the emacspeak git repo,  which is where
>  > >    bleeding-edge users live
>  > > 2. So they dont need hand-holding; if they do, then they dont belong
>  > >    on the bleeding edge.
>  > > 3. All your make script should do is to install a symlink to the
>  > >    binary it builds in  the servers directory of your checkout
>  > > 4. The .servers file is checked in, so adding swiftmac to it is a
>  > >    one-time operation.
>  > >
>  > >    Summary:
>  > >
>  > >    1. When given the choice between clever and simple, always pick 
> simple.
>  > >
>  > >    2. Lazy programmer is a good programmer (Larry Wal, author of Perl).
>  > >
>  > >    3. Emacspeak in 28+ years has had a server added to it roughly once
>  > >       every 5 years; the effort to add a server should reflect that.
>  > >
>  > >    4.  I think you would benefit from reading TAOUP by Eric Raymond
>  > >
>  > > Robert Melton writes:
>  > >  > TV--
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > My lisp uses that exact variable, the purpose of the bash script is 
> just to find which
>  > >  > emacs to run and call my lisp code.
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > The purpose of this is for people using the cutting edge version of 
> swiftmac, they can
>  > >  > use "make install" to place it in the emacspeak directory.  This 
> does not impact the
>  > >  > contributed code in anyway, as it doesn't need to find the 
> emacspeak directory, and
>  > >  > does not contain this pair of finding scripts.
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > So, if I should not use a shell script to run emacs or emacspeak to 
> find where to
>  > >  > install the swiftmac files to, how do you recommend I do it?  User 
> input?
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > > On Jan 9, 2024, at 13:01, T.V Raman <raman AT google.com> wrote:
>  > >  > > 
>  > >  > > I would advice against doing this. Emacspeak is designed to work 
> from
>  > >  > > under a single directory -- rather than splattering its files 
> around the
>  > >  > > filesystem. See how variable emacspeak-directory is defined --
>  > >  > > everything anchors on it. Any shell script you create will be 
> fragile
>  > >  > > because it gets more and more complex in the face of "handle 
> different
>  > >  > > use cases". This is also why emacspeak abandoned the make install 
> rule,
>  > >  > > leaving it to distros to do what they found most suitable;  
>  > >  > > --
>  > 
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